necessarily be opposed to that in theory but they're not going to do it for free. they will argue they did pass a bill that raises the debt ceiling and that the white house's preferred outcome a clean raise without any strings attached didn't possible. there aren't the votes for it in the house. every republican opposed, and there aren't the votes in the senate, with at 43 senate republicans saying they won't support it. enough to filibuster and block it on the senate side. a willingness to engage in some kind of negotiation, but a demand even for a short-term boost of the debt ceiling there's got to be some concessions from the white house now. >> garrett haake, monica alba, thank you very much and that's going to do it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york, the violent collision of hate and easy access to weapons of war

expanded its blast radius over the weekend to a premium outlet mall in texas where that state's republican leaders are today striking a pose of complete impotence in the face of both deadly forces, the 199th shooting took place in allen, texas, a suburb of dallas, texas, eight people were murdered including a 5-year-old boy. six others were injured. unimaginable. unthinkable carnage unfolded as a man armed with an ar-15 style rifle opened fire. here's how one eyewitness who rushed to the mall when his son said shots had been fired outside the store where he works described the scene. >> the first girl i walked up to was crouched down covering her head in the bushes so i felt for a pulse, pulled her head to the side and she had no face. and so when i rolled the mother over, he came out and asked him are you okay, he said, my mom is hurt. my mom is hurt so whether than

traumatize him anymore, i sat him down, he was covered from head to toe like somebody poured blood on him. >> the accounts are getting more graphic. his account just one of many in which eyewitnesses describe the horrors inflicted by weapons of war. weapons like the ar-15. the gunman was eventually shot dead by a police officer. now, his motive is still under investigation. "the washington post" reports that the suspect, quote, had an apparent fascination with white supremacist or neo-nazi beliefs that are now being examined by investigators as a possible motive for the attack. that is according to people familiar with the investigation. speaking on sunday, that is. nbc news is reporting police and the texas rangers working with the fbi and the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and

explosives are investigating. authorities believe the shooter acted alone. one official said investigators are interviewing his relatives and his friends. it was the second deadliest mass shooting in the united states this year and second in texas in a little over one week. even before this mass shooting on saturday, the seemingly endless wave of gun violence had already sparked calls for change all across the country and within texas where republican governor greg abbott has been staunchly opposed to any and all gun safety measures. here's what jarvis johnson said on the floor of the texas house friday. >> children are dying and we need to protect them. and stop with this partisan bs because we're not doing anything. we're hurting our -- we're hurting every texan when we don't legislate properly because you're blowing me off because i

don't have an "r" by my name. it is time to legislate. children have died in the state and you guys are sitting here joking and playing and thinking this is a joke. this is not a joke. this is real children every day are dying. and we said we got to protect guns but we haven't done a thing to protect children. >> another mass shooting in texas, this one in allen, texas, potentially hopefully underscoring america's epidemic with guns and domestic violent extremism is where we begin the hour. joining us texas state representative jarvis johnson. it's not surprising, but particularly painful that you made those comments 24 hours after a mass shooting in your state where a child did lose their life and countless others were traumatized by what they saw unfold. your thoughts today?

>> these are very trying times and very frustrating at this point as we're trying to get a handle on why this continues to happen over and over and over again and as you try to put it together and make sense of it, no sense is ever made of it because people prefer to legislate guns and not people and this is where we are and i'm frustrated and upset and i'm -- you listen to these families over and over again and people say this is not a time to politicize because people's lives have been lost, it's time for thoughts and prayers. well, prayer is prayer. let's go pray but now it's time to work and as legislators i want to work, and i want to work with my colleagues to pass sensible gun reforms, so this doesn't continue to happen over and over again. >> there's a special, i think, horror in saying what i'm about

to say, but i come on the air at least once a week and cover a mass shooting instead of, you know, the day's news from washington or something else, because it is the small piece, right, that we can all do for the victims and for the people they leave behind, and the people that die aren't the only victims, it's the children that grow up without their parents, the families that will grow up traumatized and never be able to unsee what they saw. i want to ask you about something that happened in the wake of this mass shooting. immediately, incredibly graphic descriptions and we followed the lead of the local coverage here, again, out of respect for the victims and the local press that are covering them, increasingly graphic descriptions by eyewitnesses of what an ar-15 does to its victims. do you notice that too and do you think this might be like a kaleidoscope shaking up the debate around gun safety in texas? >> you know, those kind of

graphic images, you would hope, you would expect that they would shake people up and jar people but unfortunately, i don't think that that matters. i think it all boils down to can you legislate with empathy. can you legislate by having the understanding of people have gone through in that families have said they've lost their children, the families of uvalde had to identify their children based on what the children had on and they had made graphic depictions of it but, unfortunately, it still fell on deaf ears. the only way this will ever change is when that type of horror unfortunately hurts the doorstep of those who make the decisions, unfortunately, they would have to endure and see the same pain that these families have witnessed and have been a part of before they simply can make what we all would believe is good gun sense reform. we've watched and i've heard

many of my colleagues talk about the fentanyl epidemic in texas and they are legislating. because they've said they have a family member that has died from it. they have a family member impacted, and now we're legislating and, unfortunately, when those people don't look like you, when those people don't come from your community, you don't oftentimes humanize it and, unfortunately, we care, and we legislate again for guns and not for people to protect people and that's what we need to do until -- i wish it could be just the graphic depiction but unfortunately it's going to have to hit their doorsteps. it's going to have to fall on their households and i don't want to see that happen. >> i think the other dynamic, and, again, tragically we have enough to report on patterns, but another pattern that i saw emerge this weekend is that gun owners are finding their way, making their way to the cameras and calling for change. let me show you something else

we saw in the wake of this tragedy. >> it wasn't mental health that killed these people, it was an automatic rifle with bullets. i'm a gun lover. i have guns. i'm a formerlier police officer, i'm a former army officer but these ar-15s, they've got to get off the streets. we need some action in our legislature at the federal and state level for better gun control and i'm saying that as somebody who loves guns. >> i mean, at some level it falls in the how bad is it? it's so bad that the gun lovers want to see the ar-15s, quote, taken off our streets, something has to happen at the state and federal level. does that do anything? >> well, i point out that that gentleman's son worked there. he worked at that mall, and i think that was one of the things i heard about he said that he -- no parent should ever have to see that, witnessing their son

have to walk out of the mall with their hands up and in fear for their lives, so i, again -- it goes back to this is what has to happen and oftentimes it has to hit home before these legislators can truly understand it is time to move and let me just say this, when we look at the statistics, the data will tell you that 78% of all texans including republicans want to see some sensible gun reform. but, unfortunately, we're not seeing that from this house, because, again, the nra and their lobby teams and the manufacturers are pushing so hard with the second amendment that no one is trying to take anyone's gun. we're trying to protect families. we're trying to protect children. we're trying to have quality of life but we can't because you're simply adding more guns to the streets. so, again, when it hits home, that's when legislation starts. >> one of the things that has developed in the hours since

this tragedy is more information about the killer and his affinity for neo-nazi ideologies. nbc news in the last hour reported that this is being investigated as an act of domestic violent extremism. do you have any information about that or special concerns? this was obviously a national epidemic but it has struck victims in texas this weekend. >> i absolutely have concern about it. i think when you continue to allow these types of behaviors without consequence, then you will see they have become more emboldened and this is what is absolutely happening. you are absolutely seeing these supremacist groups not being punished for their dastardly deeds but simply saying that calling it patriotism or simply saying they love their country. and they're not brought to their knees, and i think that is what this state has constantly done. we have allowed certain behaviors to take hold and take

shape. and i mean others are seeing it and they're emulating that type of behavior and so at some point there has to be a consequence to the action. no one wants to continue to talk about domestic terrorism because then the supremacists lose their mind and say, they're anti-they're racist against us. simply people want to live without you treading on them and that's what always simply happens, and so i think this is a philosophy and a culture that we are allowing to continue to manifest here in this state and we have to be strong enough to call it out and i think legislators have to be willing to call it out without fear of retribution and so we got to call it out and make sure it doesn't continue because if we allow it, this is what's going to happen over and over again. >> your voice on these issues is so important. thank you. i know there are a lot of

demands on your time, thanks for taking time to talk to us, texas state representative jarvis johnson. >> thank you. joining you are coverage longtime fixture in texas politic, matt dowd is here, claire mccaskill and frank figluizzi is here. they're all msnbc contributors. frank, i want to pick up with you on this but have to come to matt first. in the lives of all the victims and anyone who witnessed what is increasingly described in graphic ways horrific carnage of innocents gunned down at a shopping mall. your thoughts today, matt? >> it's just so incredibly anger provoking i think is the best way to say it in this. we've had eight mass shootings in texas since uvalde, since the mass shooting in uvalde, whether

it's a school, a mall, a church, a walmart, whatever it happens to be, as you enunciated it's happening over and over again. we have to get to anger but can't let that push us to frustration and discouragement. that's i think what the gun sort of lobby wants. they warrant us to get to the point where we're so discouraged we give up and say that's who we are. it's got to take anger to a level where this becomes a huge part of any campaign in our political environment. since greg abbott, the republican governor of texas, has got to be governor, mass shootings in texas have risen 100%. 100% rise in mass shootings since greg abbott has been governor and what has he done in that time? he's actually made it easier for people to get access to guns, not made it harder.

he's made it easier as that rise, 100% has happened. another thing i'll say, what's amazing to me is what -- we constantly have this debate and greg abbott is now saying instead of saying deal with guns he's saying it's a mental health issue not the least of which greg abbott cut the mental health budget in texas by hundreds of millions of dollars so he cut that budget while simultaneously saying it's a mental health problem here. in 1988, i don't know if anybody -- probably some people on this panel remember, there was a thing called lawn darts and lawn darts was a game where it had a metal spike on it. you threw it up in the air, insane game. we had it growing up and drops in a circle. three children died from lawn darts. they banned lawn darts after three children died from lawn darts. texans will record 4,000 gun deaths or more this year as we move forward in this and so, yes, it's frustrating. it's incredibly disappointing, but we have to get to a place

where it gets to anger and then anger motivates us to action. >> if matthew is trying to get us angry, here's the republican representative on cnn. >> many people argue that prayers aren't cutting it. prayers are not preventing the next mass shooting. what is your response to that criticism? >> well, those are people that don't believe in an almighty god who has -- who is absolutely in control of our lives. i'm a christian, i believe that he is. we have people, though, with mental health that we're not taking care of. since this nation made the decision that we were going to close the mental health institutions, many of these situations are based on that. and the people that say -- really i would like to stay away from the politics today because

i want to focus on the victims. today, we should be focused on the families, prayer is powerful in the lives of those people that are devastated. i know people want to make this political but prayers are important, and they are powerful in the families who are devastated right now. >> now, i don't speak for the families but neither does he. i did peruse social media and you know the families are doing today, claire, they have established gofundme accounts to raise money for orphaned children and funeral costs so i think everyone should be cautious not to speak for the families. s a culture we do get to vote as to whether or not we want churches, grocery stores, elementary stores and shopping malls to be basically targets for mass shootings in america, because what, the republican is in the grips of the nra. 85% issue. 85% of texans and americans want background checks, raising the age from 18 to 21 to buy an

ar-15 style rifle. there are a lot of things we agree on, gun safety legislation isn't one of them, claire. >> you know, it's interesting, one of my grandchildren had his first communion over the weekend, and i listened to the homily at that service, and i was reminded about what a peaceful man jesus was, and i listened to that elected representative, and they always want to say, oh, well, let's not make it political after there's a slaughter of innocents but i will tell you this, i believe very firmly that jesus would be shocked at what our country is allowing to happen. there is no way that he would

embrace everyone walking around with weapons of war and we haven't mentioned this yet but on that man who slaughtered those people, on his clothing that day was a patch that said, rwds and that stands for right wing death squad and you know who else wears those patches? proud boys. and you know who told the proud boys to stand back and stand by energizing them in a way they never dreamed possible by the president of the united states, this is political, and this issue deserves to be the most important issue on the ballot going forward. channel that anger, channel that grief, channel it in a way that we can say to governors like we have in missouri and texas that we do want something different than the slaughter of innocents on the streets of america.

we are now famous for it. texas may be the most famous but there's a lot of states that will be coming up right up behind them because this is going to keep going on until we do something. >> frank, claire did the difficult work of bringing our focus back to the shooter, the murderer, who -- let me read what nbc news is reporting about him today. extremist beliefs were shared on a social media page appearing to belong to the gunman would killed eight in a dallas area outlet mall with rants against jews, women and racial minorities, posted on the account since september. the gunman maintained a profile on the russian social networking platform ok.ru which references online forums such as forchan and white nationalists including nick tune test, an anti-semitic white nationalist provocateur who also dined with donald trump

and kanye west. your thoughts today? >> a couple of things, there's so many directions we can go in here but first let me say this, if it's not already obvious, gun violence in america has become a national security crisis. a country that can't protect its own citizens cannot sustain itself, and as we speak today at least seven countries have some form of travel advisory listed for their citizens about traveling or not traveling to the united states because of our violence problem. that's a crisis. and there is no end in sight. the other comment here that i've got to make is we completely have lost the ability to have any sane civil discussion about this issue. i say that because you only need to look at the social media responses that happened in the immediate aftermath of the allen, texas, mall shooting so

within minutes you had representative marjorie taylor greene posting this emphatically with great confidence that this shooter was a mexican gang member cartel member. he's hispanic, therefore, this is exactly what it is, you better listen to me. fox news reported that there was no evidence of anything other than this was a latino possible gang member, end of discussion. as i started to post on my own accounts, the simple reports coming out "the washington post," "wall street journal," nbc news, all quoting were citing law enforcement sources saying, hey, hold on, there looks like there's a domestic terror connection. he has neo-nazi patch on his chest and then even later in the weekend he's got online communications that are clearly showing us what supremacy and neo-nazi, right? the trolls and the bots came out in force as i simply started to post what was being reported and

they were automated and mechanicized, a machine that comes out in support of only binary thinking. it's a hispanic. it can't be anything other than a gang or border security problem. we don't want to hear about anything else about guns. >> i mean, frank, real quick, i mean, in politics it's called rapid response. in the right wing intersection of russian disinformation and right wing disinformation, what is the strategy, that it can't be true, that a self-described neo-nazi white supremacist carried out a shooting? what is their strategy of what they did around your truthful post. >> i think there's two parts. one is, it's got to be the people with brown skin. that's the problem and, gosh, that's got to be a border security problem so there's your probably. it certainly isn't guns. the other side of is let's never talk about guns because second amendment. got a lot of that in my responses, yep, you're against the constitution. you hate america.

you're against the constitution. right? and i said on the air over the weekend on this network, i said, hey, for those people that keep quoting the second amendment can you please tell me what it is about what we're seeing right now that is, quote, a well-organized militia. what part of this is well organized militia. well regulated militia. excuse me. what's well regulated about mass slaughter every week in america, none of it. >> if wanting a criminal background check before you buy a weapon of war is against the constitution, then 87% of all of us are against the constitution. i have a lot more to show you including representative allred's reaction in the aftermath of this. no one is going anywhere. when we come back we'll have much more plus even with last week's convictions of top members of the proud boys, which claire has already mentioned and as we've been discussing, the extremist group is troojically thriving, living their best

existence, growing even, moving toward targeting more and different cultural issues. we'll look at how that is colliding with republican party sanctioned efforts against the lgbtq communities specifically, the anti-drag legislative movement. later in the show closing arguments wrapping in the civil rape and defamation trial against the twice impeached once indicted disgraced ex-president. where the jury could go, what they could do as we prepare to wrap up yet another moment when accountability is possible for one of the many alleged accusations against donald trump. all that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today.

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every north texan knows that outlet mall. it's a place to go to get good deals. not a place where you should be worried a mad man is going to try to murder you and your family. i couldn't agree with you about being so worried about your kids. every time i send my 2 and 4-year-old off to school or see them with someone else i worry about them, my 2-year-old waddling with his diaper butt, the feeling that maybe something could happen. but it doesn't have to be this way. our public places don't have to become memorials. that church could just be where your daughter got married. doesn't have to be the site of the next mass shooting. this is a policy choice. these are policy choices made by the state of texas and, of course, largely blocked in the united states senate leading with ted cause. >> wow, that was congressman collin "all in"red reacting to

saturday's devastating shooting at a mall in allen, texas. matt, i saw that. i cannot drive by ang outlet mall without pulling over wanting to pull over in a rush and no one in my car lets me pull over but these two things have to sink in, right? every one of us worries about our kids and loved ones every day because now we know nowhere is immune. there is nowhere we can say a mass shooting has never happened anymore and we choose to live like this. policy choices. do you think we can make a different choice? do you think texans can make a different choice? >> i have to believe that they can and i think part of the problem, i mean, we've seen evidence that when people run this campaign, run campaigns on these issues and i would argue they need to broaden this, that the democrats if they want to win and want to succeed on this have to make this kind of to frank's point about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness because unless we're

safe we have no liberty, we have no life and we have no ability to pursue happiness. you can wrap in so many different thing, my argument only with collin allred who has a real shot at beating ted cruz this is more of a values choice, more of a values choice than it is a policy choice because it's what are your values? what do you fundamentally care about in this moment and so we've seen success, lucy won a swing seat in georgia a few years ago running on this only issue. all of the democratic candidates statewide in michigan ran on this issue and choice and won overwhelmingly and so i think it is obviously very possible but i think campaigns and candidates are going to have to not get bogged down in the 22 political issue things to argue about and make this a big fundamental choice for america and our values of who we fundamentally are, and wrap it in a big way sort of what joe biden has tried

to talk about which is democracy, freedoms but wrap this thing in a very big way and spend every dollar in your campaign on things like this. not on like we're going to argue over whether or not we should cut some certain part of the budget or whether or not unemployment rate is at 3.6% or 3.5% or whatever that happens to be, campaigns have to fundamentally make this about this issue and a broader issue of freedom and our own life and liberty. >> claire, a simpler way to go, i was the spokesperson so i was in charge of dumbing it down, is pick the 83% and 58% issue, 83% of americans think abortion should be safe and legal in most or all situations. 87%, i was wrong, i understated it, 87% of all americans according to fox news thinks we

should require criminal background checks on all gun buyers. all of them. 81% support improving the enforcement of existing gun laws. once people understand we don't even support the ones on the books, 81% of all americans think, yeah, maybe we should do that and 81% support raising the legal age to buy a gun anywhere any kind from 18 to 21. you have 80% of all americans that support requiring mental health checks on gun buyers. 80% is a huge number on that, a lot of republicans like to throw out privacy concerns, 80% of americans think the freedom to live safely and send your kids to school trumps that. 80% think allowing police to take guns from those who are a danger to themselves and 77% support a 30-day waiting period for all gun purchases. claire, where are we when the

87% of americans can't get their way on an issue that is impacting every aspect of american life? >> well, i'm going to choose to believe that we are on the verge of a culture war that will, in fact, shake the ground, and this is our culture war. we're going to take the word freedom back because the republicans clearly don't respect it. he don't respect the freedom to send your children to school without fear of slaughter. they don't respect the freedom of a rape victim to be able to decide whether or not she wants to carry a pregnancy caused by a rapist to term. they don't want books banned. this is our culture war. and democrats need to get comfortable as matt said, repeating it over and over again and making it the theme of their campaigns, this is our culture war, no more weapons of war, no

more in missouri the republicans voted and blocked to let toddlers carry ar-15s in public. no age limit. no permits. you know, everything is available to them in missouri and they're doing this in light of all these mat shootings and i will tell you the people of this state and in texas and other states, i just don't believe they're going to keep putting up with this. this denial of a very -- what is it? i mean, fred guttenberg said on your show last week, nicolle, there's like 3% of the gun owners own like 70% of the guns. and there are people -- there's a very small minority of gun owners that are nuts and, frankly, i bet when they look into this man who slaughtered all those people on saturday, i bet he owned a bunch of them along with all the proud boys and all the other folks that donald trump told to stand by

and stand back and stand by. >> you know, fig, we also are at a point where -- i hate saying things like this. i hate hearing myself say them but i'm going to do it. there have been enough mass shootings that you can look at the laws that had they passeds, you know which ones wouldn't have happened and this guts me but i'll read it. the texas tribune they reported and hundreds of bills filed in the texas legislature over the last 60 year, at least two dozen measures would have prevented people from legally obtaining weapons including assault rifles and large capacity magazines used in search of texas' mass shootings. at least five bills would have required that people seeking to obtain a gun undergo background checks so that would have kept the man involved in 2019 shooting spree in midland odesa -- he was deemed to to

mental illness. seven bills would have banned the sale or possession of the semiautomatic rifle that a shooter used to kim dozens of people at an el paso walmart. and at least two bills would have raised the legal ages to own or purchase an assault weapon from 18 to 21 years old which would have made it illegal for the uvalde shooting. whose blood do they have on their hands? >> you can connect the dots between laws that never made it to a governor's desk or got unsigned by the governor and actual death. it's fixable. these things are fixable. let's look at alan, texas, and the mall. this is a guy nbc news is reporting through courtney kube and ken dilanian whose military record shows he couldn't make it

through basic training in the military. he got kicked out for, quote, mental illness concerns, mental health concerns, should this person be the one who is allowed to purchase an assault-style weapon and has multiple weapons back home that the police found when executing a search warrant? if you ask the average texan on the street, hey, somebody booted out of basic training in the military for mental health concern, you think they should buy multiple weapons including an assault rifle? the answer would be, absolutely not so this is fixable. and i'm sure the investigation will dig into whether something broke here, whether the military was supposed to share that with the fbi background database. this came up in a church shooting in texas years ago where someone went to a church, thought his ex was there and shot up the church. the air force, i believe it was, never shared with the database as they were required to do they booted him for domestic violence

so something is broken. it can be fixed and some central solutions exist if somebody will just enact them into law. >> matt doud, claire mccaskill, thanks for having this conversation with us. again, i'm sorry we keep having to do that but this appears to be for now who we are. flank is sticking around. up next for us the culture war the republicans would rather focus on, an all-out assault on the lgbtq community. my colleague antonia hylton traveled throughout the state of tennessee and how that law restricting performances may be just the beginning of things to come and why the growing domestic extremism movement is paying close attention. she will join us on set next. te gentle on your skin, try downy free & gentle downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. the towel washed with downy is softer, and gentler on your skin. try downy free & gentle.

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how to grow more vibrant flowers: step one: feed them with miracle-gro shake 'n feed. that's it. miracle-gro. all you need to know to grow. every day i consider moving to a bluer state, moving to somewhere where that they have protections for people like me, somewhere where i don't have to fight insurance to get the health care that i need, somewhere where i can walk down the street in relative safety. i'm terrified, but i can't leave because i know that i would never forgive myself. >> it amounts to an act of extraordinary bravery, members

an unjustly maligned community persecuted simply for living their lives for being who they are staring right back into the void and saying, we're not going anywhere. we have a right to live here and to love anyone we want to just like anybody else. it was part of an incredible conversation between our friend and colleague nbc news' antonia hylton and story van ness, hostess of the drag show in tennessee. that state became the first in the nation to restrict such performances and it likely won't be the last although a judge temporarily blocked that law in tennessee there's similar bills being considered in 17 other states like there's nothing else to work on. the threat to the transcommunities extends well beyond what's happening in the stat riot the seditious conspiracy convictions for some of its leaders, quote, the proud boys have moved away from election denialism and have become increasingly fixated on

drag shows and other gay pride events. nbc news correspondent antonia hylton joins us at the table after traveling throughout the state of tennessee for what we just showed you she reported on. it's incredible. i want to play more of it but first tell me how you came to do this and set out to report on this story. >> i've been tracking this story for months and months going back into last year. we started to see groups organized by churches first and then extremist groups like the proud boys, start to show up in small numbers then slightly larger numbers then slightly larger numbers outside of things like drag story readings and drag performances that had been hosted by performers or groups in some cases for decades, for years and years and we heard about the story of one drag performer in the san francisco area who was reading a children's book to kids in a library when proud boys stormed the reading and entered the

library. that performer had to hide inside the library. i mean, was afraid to leave the library, afraid for their life that night so we tracked down their story, and it led us from state to state to state. we got in touch with organizations that were saying we're tracking the same thing, not just the number of bills that the aclu estimates there are more than 470 anti-lgbt bills that have been introduced this cycle in statehouses alone, but other groups estimate about 161 threats since 2022 directly to drag-related performances and shows, so we realized there was something here that told us about where our national politics is heading. and because of the nature of tennessee and the way that gun control and transgender rights and the performances and public access to spaces for lgbtq people all collided this year, it just ended up being the right place to investigate this story. >> what is the history -- you

were explaining to me in the break that drag has a long and rich history in the state. it's not new. >> not just in the states, i mean, arguably drag has been around for centuries. all over the world and certainly here in the united states too, a long history of lgbtq performers involved but many straight people who have taken part in drag too. nashville has a booming business around drag, drag performers have long been, you know, not just business owners and performers and popular moneymaking tax paying nightclubs but have collaborated with major musical acts for whom tennessee is a major destination. so for many of the people involved this this space, this backlash, this push to restrict their work has been shocking on so many levels but that's one of them, because they're not new. they didn't just start doing this work yesterday, and so there's a question for them,

what is this really about and does it have anything to do with drag? >> what is it about? >> when you talk to people who have fought for these laws they'll tell you it's about parental rights and the protection of children that they've seen drag performances that make them uncomfortable or think drag is inherently sexual, that's a term that's used a lot, and it's in the books in tennessee, that it poses a threat to children, to minors. the issue, though, is most drag performances are actually in adult venues in adult spaces that are already 18 and plus and the children -- the events oriented for kids, those are in libraries and we've seen them. i mean, dressed up like little red riding hood or the wolf and grandma. you know, reading books we're all familiar with like "good night, moon" and so there's a question here of the blurring of spaces, you hear the words groomer, pedophile used a lot baselessly and families, you know, people who, you know,

never imagined themselves being political actors showing up at protests imagining horrendous, horrific things happening to children that just have not happened. that doesn't -- there have been incidents of adults bringing their kids to adult themed shows, but some of the stuff that we're hearing from the right, it's just purely fabricated and it's not just put their businesses at risk, it's put people's lives at risk. i've spoken to perform i after performer who has had to hire security, who had people with weapons outside of their performances, you know, they're scared for their lives. they are reconsidering whether or not this can be the work that they do, the art form they enjoy the way they make their money anymore. nightclub owners who have had to hire security because they can't guarantee the security of the people that come to work for them so that's the point we're at and even in the states where these laws haven't passed yet, what you should know is there is that chilling effect that we're hearing. >> of course. >> people anticipating what's to

come even when it's not on the books yet. >> and "the wall street journal" reporting of the proud boys latching on to the anti-trans legislative push and anti-drag, you know, threatens, intimidating, i imagine, is not news to anybody living life the way you're describing it. does it create more fear? does it create a sort of the terror that i imagine a group like the proud boys intends? >> absolutely. story who you just played a clip of her a moment ago, she tells me she has trouble sleeping motion nights now. she described to me how when sh. she described to me how when she walks into south press, the coffee shop that turns into a karaoke bar and drag show at night, that when someone opens the door fast or enters when she's in the midst of a number that part of her brain goes blank and she thinks this is the

moment, it's going to be over for me. and that coffee shop doesn't have the same resources that, you know, a major club in the heart of nashville does. they're in knoxville. it's a much smaller operation. and so, you know, what we've seen happen to the performers like the one i mentioned in san francisco, it's had this cascading effect. and you know, they're receiving e-mails. they receive phone calls that are threatening. you know, this stuff is right at their doorstep. there's the element at the state house and there's the extremism. you know, there's also the element of religion here. especially in a place like tennessee. and not all those people are talking to each other. but i think sometimes when people talk about parental rights and what they want for their families, you know, i have to remind myself as a reporter which families are they talking about protecting? there are lgbtq kids -- >> and from what? no one put it in the curriculum. >> well, there's that. but there are lgbtq ids can,

there are lgbtq families, who told me when i was on the ground i want my kids to -- >> what are they protecting them from? right. >> yeah. that's so much at the heart i think. and i have to remind myself to ask sometimes those very basic questions actually instead of the complicated ones because that's when you get people to really get down to what's bothering them, what's scaring them. and that's what this piece was all about. >> it's incredible. we're going to play more of it after you leave us. thank you for spending some time to talk to us about it. it's great to he soo you here, my friend. >> you too. thank you, nicolle. >> it's incredible. the full report is available to stream right now. maybe not right now. maybe like in an hour and ten minutes. but right now if you want to. on peacock. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. peacock a quick break for us we'll be right back. (♪ ♪) where could reinvention take your business?

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yaaay! woo hoo! ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ we're back with frank figliuzzi. frank, i imagine republican legislative anti-drag, anti-trans agendas and the proud boys moving their heat and their focus to these issues is not accidental. can you just speak to this sort of call and answer between republican politics and the proud boys? >> it's a deliberate strategy and decision, particularly after they're getting hammered in court, the proud boys, and the victory for the justice department last week with seditious conspiracy convictions against four of the proud boys including their leader. we're going to increasingly see the strategy implemented to go local, go culture war. and that's what's playing out already. in fact, several months ago the department of homeland security issued a warning that says violent extremists are going to

increasingly target the lgbtq community. it's an attempt to essentially paint that community as the new infidels. i choose that word infidels because it comes from international terrorism where the concept of violent jihad meant if you paint somebody an infidel, they're a threat to your culture, your belief system, even your religion, then it's okay to harm them because they're somehow less than human. in fact, you're compelled to harm them. and i've got a column just out, published while we wer on the air, msnbc daily, and the column is a cautionary tale. it says don't celebrate too much the victory last week over the proud boys for seditious conspiracy but rather let's be cautious because the history on domestic extremist groups and international terrorist groups tells us when they're hammered in terms of leadership and command and control they go local, they grab cultural issues and they become the threat you can't find if you're law enforcement. that's concerning as we move forward. >> i don't multitask as well as you do. so let's come back tomorrow.

and i mean the story to be honest and show our work here that nbc broke about domestic violent extremism being investigated by the feds around the texas shooting also broke as we came on the air. but let's dig into both of those topics. i think they feel like the gravest threat to the homeland, at least as we have this conversation right now, frank. >> sure. will do. >> okay. thank you very much for your time today. a short break for us. next, in the e. jean carroll against donald trump, the jury begins deliberations. we'll bring you up to speed on all that next. don't go anywhere. on all that next. don't go anywhere. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses.

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i don't even know who the woman -- let's say i don't know who -- it's marla. >> you're saying marla's in the photo? >> that's marla. yeah. that's my wife. >> which one are you pointing to? >> here. oh, that's -- >> the person you just pointed to was e. jean carroll. >> who is that? >> and the woman on the right is your then wife ivana? >> i don't know. this was the picture. i assume that's john johnson. is that -- >> carroll. >> it's very blurry. >> that guy looked at military target maps for four years. hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york, and it is now official. the only time the jury will hear from the defendant, donald j. trump, in the rape and defamation trial brought by e. jean carroll will be that deposition right there. he taped it in october, where he memorably mixed up his own ex-wife and the woman accusing

him of rape. 5:00 p.m. yesterday was the deadline for trump's lawyers by judge lewis kaplan to notify that court if the ex-president wanted to testify. as expected trump's team let that deadline come and go. it was a move that our friend and former u.s. attorney joyce vance points out robs trump of the usual attack he uses against his enemies. >> judge kaplan i think did the smart thing here. he calls trump's bluff. he says okay, your client says he's going to testify. he says he has to leave europe early and fly home. i'm going to bend over backwards and give him every opportunity. what the judge does here is he forecloses trump's opportunity to tell everybody what a terrible biased judge he had and how they prejudiced him and didn't let him testify. he has had every opportunity here. >> which brings us to today's news, where closing arguments in the trial just finished off in the last hour. e. jean carroll's lawyer roberta kaplan reiterated to the jury

that no person, not even an ex-president, is above the law. she used trump's own words against him, saying that through his taped deposition, quote, trump is a witness against himself. she also went over the clip we played at the top of the hour, saying that by confusing carroll with his ex-wife marla maples trump proved his own defense wrong, carroll actually was his type. in her closing argument kaplan also argues this, quote, in order for you to find him, you need to conclude that donald trump, the nonstop liar, is the only person in this courtroom who's been telling the truth. meanwhile, trump's lawyer, joe tacopina, attacked e. jean carroll's credibility, saying she used the accusation to sell books and she colluded with her friends to go after trump politically. trump denies all of carroll's accusations. you have to remember that this is a civil case, a civil trial, which means the twice impeached, disgraced ex-president will not be arrested even if the jury

sides with e. jean carroll. but he will be forced to pay her damages. carroll's lawyer said today this. quote, for e. jean carroll this lawsuit is not about the money. it is about getting her name back. the jury is set to begin deliberations tomorrow, and it is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "new york daily news" courts reporter molly crane newman is back. she's just outside the courthouse. also joining us, legal analyst and msnbc host katie phang is here. and with us at the table molly jong fast, special correspondent for "vanity fair" as well as the host of the "fast politics" podcast. we'll get to the fact that that guy in the depo was the country's president in a minute. but i want to start with the news at hand, the closing arguments and what has been handed over to the jury, with you, molly. take me inside what you think was the most sort of powerful thing said and what this jury now has to decide. >> right.

so we had a very long day of closing arguments, of summations. the jury heard a lot. most of it from joe tacopina, donald trump's lawyer. of course he wasn't here today. he wasn't here at any point throughout the trial. but his lawyer had -- his summation went well beyond two hours. and they first heard from roberta kaplan, e. jean carroll's lawyer, and she kind of walked the jury through all of the testimony they've heard over the last two weeks and kind of talked to them about this one single pattern that emerged from carroll and from jessica leeds and from natasha stoyanov, who testified about being assaulted by trump in semi-public places at times that they did not expect it and then disparaged, being disparaged by trump when they spoke out decades later. roberta kaplan also talked about the fact that, you know, trump was not there, that he didn't take the stand. and she did use his words against him in his deposition and in the infamous "access hollywood" tape which the jury

saw again this morning during kaplan's summation. she used his own words to describe what carroll has alleged he did to her. roberta kaplan actually said to the jury he grabbed her by the you know what, and she said all you need to do is look no further than what he has told you. joe tacopina, you know, we saw a very energetic closing argument from him. he went well beyond two hours. the defense did not put on a case. they did not present any witnesses. but he really rehashed a lot of what we saw on cross-examination, that carroll and her two friends, lisa birnbach and -- her two friends that she confided in about this assault, that they had concocted a scheme to destroy him politically. joe tacopina said that carroll had ripped a page straight out of a "law & order" episode that we heard about earlier in the trial, and that you know, she had -- that this was all

invented and that her two friends had sort of not wanted to be a part of this scheme and she had kind of roped them into it. and then on rebuttal, when mike ferrera came up he kind of pointed out to the jury that they had heard conflicting arguments from the defense. and he said if there are conflicting arguments that means they don't have a defense. and he said that joe tacopina had said that carroll's case was an affront to justice and on rebuttal mike ferrera said, well, donald trump isn't even here today, he didn't even come to look you in the eye. kind of turning his words back on him again. this was a very eventful day. >> katie phang, trump's defense even before it fell apart seems to be in contradiction with itself, right? she's not my type, so i couldn't have done it. but if i wanted to do it i can because fortunately or not i'm a star and they let you do it. i mean, i don't even -- what was his defense at the end of the day? just to get on record with it. >> so for the record, there was

no evidence put forth by trump in his defense, and that is a jury instruction, nicolle, that the jurors will hear from judge kaplan tomorrow. he will deliver the jury instructions. he will read them to the members of the jury before they go to deliberate inside that room. and he's going to remind them that arguments from the lawyers does not constitute evidence. so there is no evidence. and robbie kaplan in her opening closing argument says you've got 11 witnesses here and none on the trump side. but more importantly, what you did hear from trump, even though he couldn't bother to stop golfing in ireland to come and do what the jurors were doing, right? the jurors were there on jury duty and they were there and they had to be there but trump didn't deign to actually spend the time to come and defend himself. they heard from trump himself. they heard trump say that is my type, right? that's my ex-wife. they also heard him say that fortunately when you're a star you can grab women between the

legs. but there was no defense, nicolle. and that is why when it's important to consider the burden of proof for e. jean carroll that you leave that in your mind. and that is exactly what the jurors were hearing. and that is the amazing thing about what we call the sandwich, when the plaintiff can get up, and robbie kaplan got up and did her arguments. tacopina got in the middle. and then you heard mike ferrara come through with a rebuttal close. what was particularly outstanding, though, was the fact that this, quote, perfect victim of rape, or the perfect rape victim doesn't exist. and that's what mike ferrara told the jurors. that's the last thing that they heard before they took a recess today. that tacopina slash trump wants you to believe that the perfect rape victim doesn't wear four-inch heels, doesn't have -- has her panty hose torn when she's raped and certainly screams out loud. and i think it was a really important message in terms of the arguments because that's exactly what closings do, nicolle. you take all of the evidence and you put it in a summation, you present to the jury and you add your argument to it. but again, there was no defense

from donald trump. >> and in his own deposition his arguments collide. right? she's not my type. oh, but i can't tell her apart from the second woman i married and reproduced with. and what are you talking about? when you're famous they let you do exactly what i did to e. jean carroll. >> and the whole defense itself is flawed. e. jean is not the first alleged -- >> the 26th. >> right. exactly. so there have been many women before her who have come forward, and in fact the trump base does not find that to be -- and even the evangelicals do not vote against trump on that. so the idea that somehow e. jean was trying to destroy trump and had cooked up a solution, you know, this is clearly not the way to destroy trump. i would say that i think that seeing tacopina bully a 79-year-old woman who was doing this because she wants to clear her name is a pretty bad look. and it's hard for me to imagine

that jurors are going to feel like she's some kind of criminal mastermind. and the thing i'm so shocked by is why is she on the stand in you know, tacopina, why didn't you scream? we've heard now many, many, many victims who have all said they haven't screamed. and again, it's not -- the impetus is not on her, especially when the numbers are so skewed. >> molly, what happens next? katie said that tomorrow the jury will get their instructions. just take us through as a procedural matter what happens after that. >> right. so the panelists have been told to come back at 0 a.m. tomorrow morning. judge kaplan is going to walk them through the two claims they are to deliberate, battery and defamation. there are a number of outstanding motions, you know, carroll's attorneys and trump's attorneys want him to explain how to deliberate the case in a certain way. and we're expecting the charge to last for about an hour or two. and then they'll officially get the case and it will go to deliberations and we'll all be

on verdict watch. so as to exactly how they're going to be instructed we're going to have to wait to find out until they come back in the morning. and at that point yeah, we'll be on verdict watch. >> katie, i'm not going to play the "access hollywood" tape again but i do want to play the questioning because to your argument it's an important lasting thing that the jury was left with. this is the questioning of trump about his comments on the "access hollywood" tape. >> when you're a star they let you do it, you can do anything, grab them by the [ bleep ], you can do anything. that's what you said, correct? >> well, historically that's true with stars. >> it's true with stars, that they can grab women by the [ bleep ]? >> well, that's what -- if you look over the last million years, i guess that's been largely true. not always but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> you consider yourself to be a star? >> i think you can say that, yeah. >> katie, let me make two points

here. one, roberta kaplan says this. he actually said fortunately, kaplan told the jury incredulously. let that sink in for a moment. he thinks stars like him can get away with it and he thinks he can get away with it here. so that's -- two is i have a real issue with sanding off the edges of trump's monstrosity, and that includes editing his quotes. and i would say the p word every time but my executive producer pat burkey would have a stroke every time. and it's gross. and a lot of my friends have kids that are at home, so i don't. but trump, when roberta kaplan says it to him twice, he doesn't skip a beat. that is a word he's comfortable with. it's a word he owns saying. and in his taped deposition, which the jury saw again today, he doesn't just own it. he almost goes beyond what he says to billy bush. he says, well, yeah, for better or -- almost like it's a burden to grab women in the p word. unfortunately or fortunately. >> yeah. to your point, he doesn't

flinch. if you look at body language -- and that's what's lost when you don't actually have somebody inside the courtroom. and i think that inures to e. jean carroll's benefit in this instance. but if you look at his body language in this videotaped deposition where he's under oath sworn to tell the truth and nothing but the truth he doesn't flinch when the p word is used. beyond that he kind of shrugs it off, like you say, like it's some burden because he is some deity or some type of god and because he's a star he's allowed to do it. what i thought was particularly powerful in the closing arguments today from e. jean carroll's attorneys, they leaned into that. they made sure the jury knew that this is exactly the position that donald trump takes. furthermore, they leaned into the reality, which is if donald trump embraces this defense, if donald trump embraces the idea that it is okay to do these things or if he embraces the idea that he never touched e. jean carroll and that it's all a lie why not come and tell the members of this esteemed jury in their eyes, look them in the eyes and tell them, i did

nothing wrong, this woman is a conspiracy theorist who is making this all up to make what, money? which is another important thing. robbie kaplan tells the jury i'm not even going to tell you the amount of damages in this case that is being sought. she wants her name back, which undercuts any argument that this is some type of money grab that's being done by e. jean carroll. but nicolle, you know me well. and what i always do when you and i speak about cases is i always temper expectations. i'm going to say two things. one, this has to be a unanimous verdict. it has to be unanimous. normally, in a new york state civil trial it would be -- i know this is going to sound bizarre. 5/6 of the jury would have to come back on the same verdict. in this instance we're in federal court and in this particular instance in this court it has to be unanimous. that is similar to a criminal case. so even though this is a civil case with a lower burden of proof, that is similar to a criminal case. the second thing, jurors often, even in civil cases, nicolle,

they always have open-ended questions. several of them are probably saying why didn't he show up and testify if he's so confident he didn't do anything wrong. the other thing is this. they may be asking themselves about the dna. they may be asking themselves about the dress. they don't know all of the legal maneuvering and machinations that went on prior to this trial starting. so there may be some unanswered questions that may not help e. jean carroll. but this is the american judiciary. this is our judicial system. this is what e. jean carroll wanted and deserved, and she got. and donald trump had the opportunity to defend himself in this judicial system and he chose not to do so. and that might come back to bite him in that place. >> and because we're not him we et al. those words. trump is no longer in the white house for now. what a scary thought. and for the first time we can look at the carnage of having a president who so openly embraced misogyny. misogyny like racism thrives when it has a cheerleader, when

it has someone who gives izz his supporters permission to engage in it. but it is profoundly hard to measure what an increase in misogyny looks like. we certainly saw a profound backlash to christine blassie ford who accused supreme court justice brett kavanagh of sexually assaulting her when they were teenagers. blassie ford had to effectively go into hiding after coming forward. but it is important to recognize that unfettered sexism often results in silence and women opting out of speaking up. i don't think the me too movement offered up into the public arena a single woman that benefited either way. the silence ate them alive. speaking out turned them into humans who were literally hunted by the media and by some of the perpetrators. >> yeah. and what's valuable about what e. jean is doing right now is there are other women who are seeing this bravery and who are saying if she can do it at 79 years old maybe i can do it.

and again, there are no rewards for coming forward. and you and i both know this, the history is long with women who have come forward and been really demolished. but we do it because it's the right thing. right? we do it because this is what we do on this earth, is to do the right thing. and so i do think there are women who are watching this and understanding this. and every time you do something like this you are ultimately sort of -- she did this for the other people who have been through things like this. >> we should point out, 26 women have credibly accused donald j. trump, the twice impeached, once indicted disgraced ex-president of sexual assault. molly crane newman we will continue to call on you this week as this continues to move forward. katie phang, we'll continue to call on you too. molly sticks around. when we come back the top democrat on the senate judiciary committee urging chief justice john roberts to clean up justice clarence thomas's tangled web of

financial dealings and ethical lapses as the spotlight continues to shine brightly on the grievances and score settling mindset of some of the court's most conservative members. we'll tell you about that new reporting next. later in the program the tragic story of a deadly encounter between a white bar owner and a black protester during the george floyd demonstrations in 2020. the author of the new book "the lost sons of omaha" will join us here at the table. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. quick eabrk. don't go anywhere. disease for years and your eyes feel like they're getting kicked in the backside, it's not too late for another treatment option. to learn more visit treatted.com. that's treatt-e-d.com. (bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪

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gets worse and worse by the day. chief justice roberts has the power in his hands to change this first thing tomorrow morning. he could announce a code of conduct for the court and finally mean something. he could announce that the court will be subject to at least the minimal standards that apply to all other federal judges. >> that was senator dick durbin. of course the chairman of the senate judiciary committee. on the endless whirlwind of revelations and ethics concerns surrounding the u.s. supreme court. durbin also said over the weekend that, quote, nothing is off the table when it comes to dealing with the latest on justice clarence thomas, including outrageous gifts from a gop mega donor and reporting about his wife's financial relationship with a conservative judicial activist who asked for paperwork to have, quote, no mention of ginni of course, end quote. durbin's call for chief justice roberts to finally be embarrassed enough to act comes as maureen dowd writes in the "new york times" about the supreme arrogance tied to some

of the court's most extreme decisions, with justice alito feeling maltreated and justice gorsuch, dowd writes this, quote, settling a score for his mother from her brilliant new piece, quote, it's the greatest gathering of grievances we've ever seen on the high court. the woe is me bloc of conservative male justices is obsessed with who has wronged them. it might be an opportune time to hire a supreme shrink. so these resentful men can get some much-needed therapy and stop working out their issues from the bench. let's bring into our conversation brian falling, co-finder and executive director of the progressive judicial advocacy -- i'm so excited to here what he thinks about maureen dowd's column. demand justice. basil smikle has also joined the table. he's director of the public policy program at hunter college. brian, maureen as usual is sort of a warm knife through cold butter and gets right at the mess of the court. i'm not even against a shrink for all of them if they stop

acting the way they've been acting. do you think, though, that they're clearly staring in the reflecting pool all day everywhere, all day every day, alito quotes things that have been said about him everywhere from newspaper coverage to coverage on this very network. they're obviously -- i don't know how they're getting anything done. i understand that they are a little behind. it's because they're sitting around watching cable all day. do you think we're getting to a point where the people who can, people like senator blumenthal, people like durbin, will do the things they need to do to have a real congressional investigation? >> well, first of all, i agree that maureen dowd column was quite delicious. maureen likes to put her political subjects on the couch, so to speak, and famously talked about obama as spock-like. but i think she really nailed it in terms of what's going on in the heads of these republican justices. if you take a step back and think about it, what these republican justices are embarked on is a pretty remarkable thing in terms of their willingness to spit into the political wind and

issue decision after decision that runs so flagrantly against public opinion. and so you sort of have to ask yourself what motivates that, how could they possibly wake up every day and sort of get so excited about taking on 80% of the country on issues from guns to abortion to voting rights. and what they've done is to a person they've convinced themselves that they are the persecuted minorities in this country and that they are the aggrieved party. maureen's column didn't even get into brett kavanaugh who famously tried to say that christine blasey ford's allegations were somehow revenge for the clintons. but there is this sense of grievance among all the conservative justices that i think motivates them to continue to plow forward and just tune out all these calls for ethics reform no matter how loud they grow. and so in one sense dick durbin is correct, that john roberts does have the power in his hands in dick durbin's words to do something about this. but john roberts doesn't have clean hands on this issue either. we've read the reporting about jane roberts and her clients that haven't been disclosed. and this goes to the flaws of

the ethics requirements. they don't require justices' spouses to disclose the clients. they only have to say the name of the company they work for. they don't have to say who hires them. so if ginni thomas's case she didn't have to say that leonard leo was funneling payments to her llc. and in jane roberts' case she didn't have to say law firms that appear before her husband all the time are hiring her. so i think that's going to prevent john roberts from getting on his high horse and policing clarence thomas's ethical woes here. so it really falls back on congressional democrats and dick durbin and richard blumenthal like you said to step up to the plate here. and so i hope that that hearing that dick durbin held last week, which was good, is not the final word here because it won't be enough. >> brian and i used to be on the other side of political issues. we are certainly not on this issue. but one thing that i think of when i think about democrats sort of snatching what is it, defeat from the jaws of victory is that republicans never have what they have. they've got the public wind at their back. abortion should be legal in all or most cases, 83% american

public. all democrats, all independents and a vast majority of republican women and at least half of republican men. 83%. on background checks, gun safety legislation raising the age and banning assault weapons, this is an 80 plus issue. all democrats, republican women and at least half of republican men. on making voting easy it's another 80 plus issue. so the supreme court is like a stack of pancakes, on the opposite side of the american people on the three biggest issues when people think of an assault on democracy. then they've got a crappy ethics code. right? it's less than every other federal judge, which the public is just understanding. and the crummy code they have they don't abide by. so it's this tall stack oozing with butter and syrup that says we don't give a you know what about you. >> right. to brian's point, for congressional democrats the ball is certainly in their court. but my concern here based on everything you've just said is that they're going to come up, the congressional democrats may come up with guidelines even if

the chief justice contributes to that somewhat. they may come up with guidelines, but are they actually going to come up with enforcement? these are lifetime appointments to a court that could make national policy for a generation. where is the enforcement? that side of the equation has to be there. i would also add in these questions about embarrassment and the low poll numbers for the number sentiment toward the court, my somewhat cynical response is they don't care because they got exactly what they want. and if i zoom out a little bit what i mean by that is for decades conservatives have funded the intellectual and scholarly framework and platform for all of the policies that they want to implement including the people who will implement it at every level of government. democrats have done the same thing. not quite as good at it. and hasn't really stuck to the same ideology in the same way. but conservatives are fantastic at that.

and in doing so over decades they got all the federal judges and the supreme court nominees that they wanted in place to be able to turn their back on what the american people want and support. so from their point of rue -- >> it's like the dog catching the car. people don't want what their supreme court did. >> exactly right. from their point of view they're in exactly the spots that they have been waiting for for decades. so they don't care about that embarrassment that we think they should care about as public servants. so the only question is how do you enforce those rules and those guidelines to get them to tick to behavior in a responsible way that we think they should? >> i believe -- i agree with all except one piece of this. they care. they care very much that we're complaining about them. because they want to do the three layers. they want to make judgments that they know are totally out of line. justice sotomayor called the stench of the court. you've got a bunch of right-wing lunatics in state legislatures legislating for the appointments trump made. and that's what she described is the stench of the court.

you've got this subpar ethics code. and then for the subpar code of ethics that exists you've got thomas clearly sticking his finger in the socket saying catch me if you can. they want it all ways. >> right. and also remember republicans don't like losing. they know they lost those midterms on roe. right? they know that. they know how wildly -- >> alito. i mean, specifically the salt in the wound of that opinion is as much to blame for why. >> and what about thomas? >> right. we're coming for the rest of you. >> i think the american people do not like this radical court. i do think republicans don't like losing. and i think -- you saw this with the birth control pill. i'm sorry, with the abortion pill. they decided not to rule. right? they kicked it down to the lower court. because it would open a big pandora's box with the fda approval stuff. so i do think they are -- they're very emboldened still but you are seeing a pause which you haven't seen before.

>> brian fallon, the pause is to pause and complain about us. not to look in the mirror and -- it's like the friend that complains about everything they order but never sends anything back. right? it's awful, it's awful, i hate it, we'll never come here again, but they didn't send it back and -- they're sort of the worst kind of a bad -- maureen dowd, she put them on the couch because that's where they belong. can they be -- i think you'll answer this question in an obvious way, so i'll ask it differently. without enforcement will anything change? >> oh, come on. no. but nicnicolle, you've advised people at the highest level of politics and you know if you're working for a politician who's going through a scandalous situation they thet thissar back up. it's not their natural instinct to go out and give an interview where they reveal everything and put their cards on the table and act contrite. they tend to be defensive. and it tends to be their

advisers that care about winning elections and can read a poll that sort of cajole them into showing some contrition and admitting that, you know, something could have been done differently. and these justices are so insulated, they don't have anybody that is sort of giving them a reality check on their worst impulses here. so i don't think we can expect anything to change unilaterally from the court. and there was an interesting but very depressing report that came out today from two very respected political science professors, maya sen and dan epps. and they basically did a scholarly paper where they ran a bunch of scenarios about the results of elections over the next 40 years. and basically the situation to confirm a supreme court justice now is you have to have a retirement or a death happen in the same window where the president and the senate are of the same party otherwise you can't get somebody through. they basically said that ab sebt some kind of legislation like term limits or the expansion the court the balance of power we currently have on the court will be unchanged until 2065. with all these bad decisions,

all these ethics scandals are we really going to let this persist for 40 more years? if not we're going to have to have some collective will to do something about it legislatively. >> and i feel like you had a camera on me in some back rooms in which i worked as a staffer, brian. we've all had these conversations. the x factor is events. we may be -- we don't know what we don't know about upcoming elections. but if you stack up too many more 85%, 80 to 85% issues where the republican party and the supreme court are on the other side of it, you don't know what people are going to do when they go to the polls. >> yeah. and i think it has not served republicans to this point. and good. these are not popular legislations. they're doing wildly unpopular tough. and they don't seem to -- you know, they don't care. >> brian fallon, thank you. we knew we had to have you after we saw the events of the weekend. thank you for joining us again. molly jong-fast, thank you so much for being here at the table. basil sticks around because ahead for us, incredible story to tell you about and some

incredible storytelling to showcase it. at a time of racial reckoning in our country a tragic and deeply unsettling story about the tragic deaths of two men and the unsettling and unfinished search for justice that ensued. the long-time journalist and reporter joe sexton will be our guest right here at the table on his deeply reported brand new book "the lost sons of omaha." that's next. don't go anywhere. 'sat next. don't go anywhere. ♪ ♪ but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections.

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there is breaking news to tell you about on the criminal case against donald trump in manhattan regarding hush money payments made to adult film star stormy daniels before the 2016 election. a judge has just barred the ex-president from posting evidence from his criminal case on social media, restricting the former president's ability to make public statements about the charges against him. katie phang is back with us. katie, i talked to people who thought this was necessary but a long-shot, that this judge wouldn't take this step. it's an extraordinary step to take and one that i think donald trump thought wouldn't be taken. >> yeah, i think what happens, nicolle, is you end up having a collision between the rights of an accused to the first amendment, the ability to be able to exercise that first amendment constitutional right to free speech, but also the interest from the prosecution to ensure the integrity of the evidence in this case. we know that alvin bragg's office filed a motion on april 25th and apparently i just saw the order that just came in, there was a hearing on may 4th,

and during and as a result of that hearing the judge has decided that donald trump cannot post on social media regarding the case. now, we've seen a gag order in other cases, as rare as it is to occur, we saw one happen in the roger stone case. we've talked about it before. and that was actually more toward the idea that there were extrajudicial statements that were being made that ran the risk of actually poisoning or tainting the prosecution or tainting the process as a whole. in this particular instance i do think there is also a marriage of a few other considerations, nicolle. i think we also know that judge marchand in this case has seen the volatility, the particular poison i think, the poison that comes out of donald trump when it comes to the thoughts he has about the process, the judge, the judge's family, et cetera. we just actually saw as a side note in the e. jean carroll case the anonymity of the jurors being preserved by federal judge kaplan because of the fear as to what donald trump could do using the tools of social media at his

hands. although it's rare it does happen. this can be appealed, one. two, the other consideration is is there a fear this actually does end up having an effect on a potential jury pool for this trial but the trial is a long time in coming, nicolle. this can be revisit bid donald trump's team. even though this order has been entered right now it may not be the final say or the final word or the final death knell for donald trump being able to post socially about his trial or his case. >> an amazing moment to be alive. an ex-president wanting to post in his own hush money to porn star trial. katie phang, thank you for joining me back on the air with us. we're going to sneak in one more break and then we're going to spend the rest of our time with you with the author of a new book "the lost sons of omaha." you won't want to miss this. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. the gardener... goes to wayfair for gardening basics that... aren't so basic.

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(seth) hi, cecily. i just switched my whole family to verizon. (cecily) oh, it's america's most reliable 5g network. feed your lawn. (seth) and it's only $35 a line. (vo) save big during our spring savings event, and get the disney bundle with disney+, hulu, and espn+ included. all for just $35 a line. verizon since george floyd's murder shocked and horrified the nation and the world in may of 2020 our country has been trying to have a renewed and refocused racial reckoning, expoing years of complex mistrust both political and racial that divides our country today. begging the question we ask all the time on this show. who exactly are we? stories like floyd's are not uncommon in the day-to-day news coverage. from any corner of our country. just this weekend new yorkers

took to the streets to protest the death of 30-year-old jordan neely. he was choked to death, similarly to floyd, on a subway by a veteran of the marines who said that neely was threatening him and other passengers. while much is still unknown about that incident there are some echoes in terms of the larger themes and questions that they raised to a little-known case that happened in omaha, nebraska during the protest that followed george floyd's murder. after a 38-year-old bar owner and veteran fatally shot a 22-year-old black protester. months later that bar owner, having been indicted by a grand jury for manslaughter, took his own life. his story just happens to be the subject of a new book by pulitzer prize-winning journalist joe sexton. it is called "the lost sons of omaha: two young men in an american tragedy," which examines this unbelievable story set against the backdrop of our deeply divided country. in a "new york times" essay this weekend with a longish excerpt

from the book, sexton writes this -- "in my 40-year career as a journalist i've always been drawn to heartbreak. i found that in diving into stories of devastating loss i almost always discover people of remarkable grace. moments of acceptance and forgiveness. what happened in omaha was of course far more complicated than a child accidentally slain in the street. the events seemed to me to amount to a certain kind of tragedy, an important one, in an angry and divided nation, not the straightforward tragedy of great loss resulting from bad luck, not the shakespearean variety involving the noble person with a tragic flaw. rather, the sort in which two characters, both with stakes in their community, maybe one black and the other white, take matters into their own hands and produce an awful outcome, a tragic result for which there are no outright villains, a horror in which the specifics of the individuals and their

fateful circumstances are not swept up by larger agendas or long-standing grievances, however real and true." joe sexton joins us now. basil smikle is still here. congratulations on the book. it is all those things, heartbreaking, nuanced, and tragic. tell me about "the lost sons of omaha" and how they each end up losing their lives. >> well, first, thanks for having me. and it was a wonderful summation of it. and you're very generous -- >> written by you. >> very generous. yeah, i mean, i can take you back to july of 2020. george floyd had been killed just weeks earlier. and i was a senior editor and reporter at propublica and i got a call from the boss who said hey, we don't have anything to publish on tuesday but we have a tip that there was a racial killing in omaha, and it looks as if a white supremacist killed a young african american protester and got away with it.

and i said, well, that's a big story to turn around for tuesday. and it has taken me 2 1/2 years of my life to try to climb inside what actually happened. so i can try to do a quick and careful -- >> tell us. >> -- version of it. like i think 200 other cities in the days after floyd was killed omaha was up in arms and there were people in the street and there were two consecutive nights of quite, you know, raucous and even violent protest. and in the streets of omaha two young men came together, 38-year-old ex-marine named jake gardner, who gardner, who had w fistful of medals and ribbons as one of the first marine units into iraq in 2003. he was a bar owner. he had come to the bar to protect it against vandalism.

>> it was closed because of covid. >> absolutely. he had been bleeding losses, roughly $90,000 of prospective income stocked in his bar. he brought his guns with him. two pistols and a shotgun. also in the treat was 2-year-old james gurlock. at the group up in a mostly poor, mostly black section of town. he had been sent away for years as a 16-year-old for a crime, and he was tried as an adult, in part, because of a crime he had committed as an 11-year-old, which was he was living in a homeless shelter in norfolk, virginia, 11 years old, he stole some kind of playstation game or whatever. he's a child looking to have fun, a child without means or resources for toys he takes a

playstation out of a neighbor's house, is arrested and charged for burglary. when he then at 16 is facing new charges, that crime as an 11-year-old is held against him. he's tried as an adult, sentenced to 3 to 5 years. so he had reason to be in the streets of omaha protesting police misconduct or, you know, our fairly broken criminal justice system. they come together in the sort of chaos. there was tear gas being deployed by the police. there were m oto have cocktails being thrown. the marine jake gardeners was there with his 69-year-old dad, who gets flattened in the chaos. gardner goes with a gun in his waistband to figure out who had attacked his dad. he runs into skurlock. they have an actual exchange

where somebody says black lives matter. gardner says, i totally agree, and if you didn't knock my dad on his ass, then move on. skurlock and others moved toward him. he backs up, stay the eff away from me. he shows a gun, takes it out briefly, and is backing up toward his bar, when out of the blue, he is jumped by another protest behind. >> not skurlock, and there's a fight on the ground. he squeezes off two rounds from his poise toll, doesn't strike anyone. he's on his knees to get back to his fight when skurlock jumps on his back. they fight over the again. gardner squeezes a single round, not knowing who was on his back,

much less what color of skin he was, and he's struck once in the neck, pronounced dead shortly thereafter. >> and 2k3w5rd ner loses his life. he stays on scene, police arrived, they interrogate him. the local county attorney is a white democrat, he had been in office for almost a dozen year, a pretty impressive set of credentials, open discovery with defense lawyers, um, you know, mental health drug courts, and he reviews videotape of the scene, alook, there's no way i'm going to overcome a self-defense claim here. he was jumped during a riot, and may have very well feared for his lives. no charges are pressed.

omaha is in flame again, and the enter net becomes an almost lethal source. within seconds there's false narratives, there are claims that gardner had stalked him, shot him twice from behind. >> and video evidence disproves all this. >> absolutely. >> i want to read one thing to you. this is a black marine, who knew gardner. he captured the tragedy. he had served with mr. gardner, gone to his bar, appeared on a news segment to talk about their service. he said mr. gardner had treated him like a brother. the black man in miss wonders what he was out there with a gun, but the marine in me feels like i would have done the same thing. he said he might lose thinks job if he was named. he felt he was without a choice.

the sadness hard to measure. i said i understood. >> is the identity is complex. what leans in a particular situation. for him, it's probably always become a black man, but how do you separate that from being a black marine. as i'm reading, i'm thinking about jordan neely who lost his life last week, because he was become choked by coincidentally a marine, choked to death. not only were there people holding mr. neely's hands why he was become choked, but people were perhaps afraid to step in and say, enough is enough. as you're talking, how did we get here as a country? i understand it. we are so deeply divided. we are so deeply impacted by our own experiences, and in many ways, when you lay a race on top

of that, the segregation means we live in such different circumstances and apart from each other, we never have the opportunity to engage collectively. >> right. the heartbreak of the black marine's presentation to me, no matter which way he felt, he would not allow his name to be used for fear he would lose his job. you know, it was the experience of reporting the story in omaha that was almost as unsettling and heartbreaking as anything else. there were occasions in which, you know, i went out there, and people would not speak to me unless i stipulated before we talked that gardner was a racist. there were marines who had served, fought, seen combat, suffered wounds, who would not use their names for fear that black lives matter supporters would somehow come for them. you know, i can't remember exactly where i read it, but to

your point, nicolle, at the outset, i read somewhere our democracy is falling victim to not just political division, but political sectarianism. we adopt just disagree, we don't actually dislike each other, but regard each other as alien, immoral and a threat. >> the book is really important right now. it's beautifully reported. i'm grateful to both of you for being here and having this conversation with me. congratulations. "sons of omaha" is out tomorrow. thank you. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k break fors we'll be right back. landmarks, local life and cultural treasures. because when you experience europe on a viking longship, you'll spend less time getting there

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